EVE Search - Top ten reasons the protest failed

Check My IP Information

All Channels

EVE General Discussion

Top ten reasons the protest failed

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.05 00:54:00 - [1] Kudos to CCP for defeating the uprising and retaining the right to break your game and wreck your company's financial future. Well played, CCP. Here are 10 reasons (in no particular order) I think we lost: 1. Lack of a coherent message by the protesters. 2. Lack of buy-in from the leadership of any large alliance or any truly charismatic/well-spoken individual capable of getting GDI buy-in (to consolidate messaging/actions.) 3. Staggered subscription expiry. 4. Skill queues and POS fuel. 5. Prisoner's dilemma. (free riders) 6. EVE's ingrained culture of trolls and fanbois (plus the ability to post anonymously.) 7. The lack of alternative engaging sandbox games. 8. CSM willing to be bought off for a few drinks. 9. Large portion of the playerbase (including Mynxee! ) willing to be bought off with a few almost-meaningless words. 10. CCP stall tactics and counterintelligence/war propaganda (via dev alts) Did I miss any? Want to buy a monocle?
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.05 01:47:00 - [2] Originally by: baltec1 It stopped because the bulk of us didnt want none vanity items. CCP has now said the will not go down that road so we are happy again. Its as simple as that. No, they didn't. And no, it's not. I think it's fair to say that if Incarna had been released with the option to dock-to-hangar, had included a greater variety of prices in the MT store, and had included a commitment from CCP to never sell non-vanity items or convenience or functionality EVER, it would have still been the worst 'expansion' of all time. So no, after stalling for over a week, (and jeopardizing the mental and physical health and well-being of poor White Tree,) a toothless statement that we have no plans to sell non-vanity items in our vanity items store (which is precisely what the statement says) doesn't cut it. "It is CCPæs plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only. There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store." Want to buy a monocle?
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.05 01:59:00 - [3] Originally by: Zero GodOfDestruction I disagree with #7 Perpetuum online- I've been playing it since last week, and to be perfectly honest, I like better than eve. I've tried it. I REALLY wanted to like it. I'm glad you do, though. But fwiu they're already talking about going the MT route as well (which is fair enough for a new game, I suppose.) Want to buy a monocle?
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.05 02:35:00 - [4] This thread was supposed to be about WHY we lost, but given the (surprisingly?) high degree of controversy over WHETHER we lost, I suppose I should explain what winning would have looked like. Let's see if we can agree on a few facts: For the last 8 years, EVE has been a sandbox game about Internet Spaceships and a player-driven economy with a steep learning curve and requiring a long time investment from its players/customers. EVE has always run on low-end computers. Even by players running multiple accounts, a practice which has been encouraged in both game development and marketing by its developer, CCP games. It has an incredible community that pays a high monthly subscription, with the average long-term player paying $50 per month or so (to support the multiple accounts I mentioned earlier.) In exchange for that high monthly subscription, EVE has traditionally offered 2 'free' expansions per year. EVE has been and continues to be immensely profitable for its developer, CCP Games, which refers internally to EVE as its 'Golden Goose.' Recent patches and expansions have left countless bugs, exploits, imbalances and unfinished features. EVE (Internet Spaceships) is in a state of utter neglect. The last patch fried/overheated the video cards of a significant percentage of its customers and makes the game unplayable in multibox mode for a significantly higher percentage of its customers. CCP Games devotes grossly inadequate financial/development resources to EVE (Internet Spaceships,) focusing instead solely on its 2 new games in development. What few resources it does devote to EVE (Internet Spaceships) are being allocated by someone who has expressed enthusiasm about breaking in-game functionality and selling it back to the players through microtransactions. Hopefully we can agree on those facts. Now here's what winning looks like (from my perspective:) CCP commits permanently to making Incarna optional. CCP commits permanently to keeping $ for GTC for PLEX the only MT in the game. CCP removes Aurum from the game. CCP agrees that since we have paid for 2 expansions per year with our inflated monthly subscription, and since this expansion is all about Spaceship Barbies, that they will allow us to play dressup with our Spaceship Barbies for 'free' (since we've already paid for it with our inflated monthly subscription.) CCP acknowledges that Hilmar's idea to gouge players because he saw a slideshow on the Internets about gouging players in a F2P game doesn't work in the industry's most expensive subscription-based MMO. CCP restores adequate funding to EVE development (Internet Spaceships.) CCP regains the respect and trust of its playerbase, and goes on to great financial success from its 2 new games, which can operate on whatever financial model Hilmar dreams up because they are new games with no established precedents/understandings. That's what winning would look like (more or less). It's a little rough, but give me a week to fly to Iceland and I'd polish it up a bit. Or just get me drunk and tell me you have no plans to sell non-vanity items in your vanity items store. I'm good with that. Want to buy a monocle?
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.05 03:06:00 - [5] To expand a bit on CSM's particular failure. Yes, Mittens is a drunken blowhard who failed miserably, but it's more than that. CSM failed, imo, because they had the wrong objective. CSM's objective, imo, was to reach an agreement with CCP. CSM's objective should have been to extract meaningful concessions from CCP. The playerbase can give you all the leverage in the world, but if you go to the car dealership determined to buy a car, Hilmar will sell you a car and laugh all the way to the bank. You've got to go to the car dealership prepared to walk away without a new car. Imagine how awesome this would have turned out if CSM had just said no dice and released a statement saying: 'We would have accepted X, Y, Z but CCP refused to accept ANY of our terms, so we cannot announce today a resolution to this situation.' Duh. Winning. Want to buy a monocle?
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.05 03:13:00 - [6] Originally by: San Severina AkJon, you speak 100% for me, only you say it better. ... Never forget EvE Players, this patch cost the Community a lot of great players & in a game like EvE the community is everything, this is unacceptable IMO, especially when it all could have been avoided if CCP didn't have their heads buried so far up their -you know what!- Thanks for the compliment, but I think you say it pretty damn well yourself. Want to buy a monocle?
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.05 03:31:00 - [7] Originally by: San Severina honestly AkJon, I wish you were on the CSM, maybe make White Tree an offer, since S/He is obviously not interested in anything the players want & doing the Job is a risk to his/her health & a massive inconvenience to boot. I'll be giving all my remaining ISK to you before the 14th, maybe you can put it towards a plex & keep fighting the good fight for me & many others like me. I agree 100% with everything I've read of yours -100%. CSM maybe 5% & this mess is partly their fault anyway for not being Men instead of trembling boys in front of the mighty CCP. Please keep your ISK. I have 30B and 5 accounts paid through march already. And please have some sympathy for White Tree. I don't share his view but I think his post came from the heart, and I appreciate that. (I prefer a genuine emotional outburst to disingenuous political doublespeak any day.) Want to buy a monocle?
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.05 04:00:00 - [8] Originally by: Asuri Kinnes OP - your an over-entitled dolt. I think my fellow players have really low self-esteem or battered wife's syndrome or something. I'm not over-entitled at ALL. I'm a customer of the world's most expensive subscription-based MMO. The developer has left the game in tatters and is now trying to squeeze out a few more shekels by charging even MORE money to fix some in-game functionality it plans to break. Let's see if this analogy helps: If I go to a pricey restaurant and order (and pay for) steak, I don't expect to be served hamburger helper and then to be charged extra for the ketchup. Want to buy a monocle?
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.05 05:45:00 - [9] Originally by: Mister Smithington You're projecting your particular desires onto the community. Guess what? Not everyone shares your priorities. The fact that you made this post assuming that everyone would agree the protest failed demonstrates that quite clearly. Let me ask you this? If the wishes of the majority of the community had not been achieved, do you really think the rage would have died down? We were ****ed about the prospect of game effecting MTs in our sandbox. CCP backed down from those, and so we let off the rage. AkJon, I'm sorry you jumped on the populist rage-train waving the flag for the most hardcore position of secondary and tertiary issues. I'm sorry you didn't understand the revolt was about MTs, and not reshaping Eve into your personal ideal. You're right, no one should be forced into incarna, the way that no one should be forced into wormholes or forced into mining. But what you fail to understand is that some people are very much looking forward to the full version of Incarna. Some of them would love to take all the devs off Flying in Space to churn out Incarna content as quickly as possible. The summit was still a victory for them, because it achieved its primary goal: getting CCP to back away from MT for game effecting items. TL;DR, you're delusional, stop talking. Which of my particular desires do you think I'm projecting? That Incarna be optional? That CCP ought to allocate sufficient resources to Internet Spaceships? That MT be restricted to PLEX (or to vanity only as a final compromise)? That in-game functionality ought not to be broken by CCP and sold back to its customers via microtransactions? That CCP ought to be satisfied with its 'highest cost per player in the industry' subscription model and not treat its customers like the 'golden goose' it thinks of us as? I am confident that all of my 'desires' would meet with majority (if not vast majority) approval from the rest of CCP's customers. I don't consider any of them to be 'hardcore'. I think you are (to put it kindly) misinformed. But please illuminate me if you disagree and please provide specifics and not ad hominems. Thanks. Want to buy a monocle?
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.05 05:58:00 - [10] Teadaze said it well when he left: "Firstly I would like to point out that just because IÆve decided Eve is no longer the game for me it doesnÆt automatically mean your choice to continue to play it is wrong. Nor am I going to try to make a case why you should quit, I believe in the ôplay what you enjoyö mantra and it would be a very dull world if everyone had the same opinion about everything. So, why did I cancel two of my six accounts last year and the final four yesterday? Simply put, CCP promised that Incarna would be optional and it is now clear that it is not going to be. The CaptainÆs Quarters (CQ) being the first part and having seen the plans for the other bits due this year the rest wonÆt be optional in any real sense (I hope they change their mind but in any case the discussion was buried under the NDA banner so I canÆt go into detail). For me this is a deal breaker. I can handle the existence of Incarna to cater for the people who are looking forward to it. I can even handle the reduced development of the flying in space part of the game (after all, due to CSM pressure we have a team working on quick fixes). But forcing me to use the avatar environment û sorry no, this is not the game I enjoyed. To some people this isnÆt enough of a reason and they claim IÆm being an idiot û well I point you to the first paragraph. It would have been an easy thing and a big win for CCP to retain the docking into hanger as an option for those of us who have zero interest in the avatar engine stuff, but CCP have decided not to. I can only assume they donÆt want metrics showing any significant number of people not using the avatar stuff and also I sense the hand of marketing. It should not be the job of the CSM or the players to make a case for why a disruptive change shouldnÆt be put in game, it is the job of CCP to make a case for why they want to put it in! In this case the best answer I got was ôBecause it will be awesomeö which I donÆt find an acceptable reason (Awesome has lost its meaning now, it is no better than using nice ;) ) Am I bitter? Not especially. IÆm more disappointed with the current trend at CCP for enforced participation in new features. The loss of the existing character portraits broke any significant investment in my eve chars and the broken promise of Incarna being optional made the decision to leave fairly simple. Some will claim that I should wait and see, but the CQ blog confirmed what I already knew from the summit. IÆve already waited to find out if they would take the optional comments on board. For the Incarna fans there is more to come but unless CCP pull a 180 on some plans I will like it even less than the enforced docking into CQ. Rather than continue to raise red flags and call bull**** on various things (as CCPÆs CEO wanted us to) I will focus my energy into other projects. The thing IÆve found the most amusing is the amount of vitriol directed towards me by players (some with known CCP connections) for daring to suggest the CQ be optional. I didnÆt want to take the shinies away from you, so what difference does it make to your gameplay if I would rather see only my ship in the hanger than a room? Again, justify a disruptive change instead of asking me to make the case for retaining existing systems. It could have been an optional change and everybody would have been happy. Then come the comparisons between opting out of an interface and opting out of PvP. No that analogy is flawed because there is a simple difference between player driven behaviour and a chat UI. As I said at the top, if you still enjoy Eve then I donÆt think you foolish for playing it. This is not an either or, them and us, for or against type of situation. I respect your choice, why is it so hard for people to respect mine? No you canÆt have my stuff and IÆm not going to biomass my character. Never say never. Maybe in a couple of years IÆll come back." Want to buy a monocle?

AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.05 06:13:00 - [11] I also find Goon opinions from something awful rather interesting: Evil Weasel: "Mittani got snookered at the CSM meeting, guess he can't handle his liquor that well." Evil Weasel: "Vile rat is correct. Mittani got the same carefully worded statement allowing future non-vanity transactions they offered before he left. He also doesn't seem to have spoken to the people who rammed through the microtransactions stuff (not the devs) so he's feeling all warm and fuzzy because he spoke to people who aren't important." Mittens' Reply: "You know none of the poo poo I know. Vile Rat didn't even attend the summit. He's as informed as you are. And you have no clue who I spoke to about what. Edit: Suppose I shouldn't be ~allmad~ but it's pretty gay when you don't even talk to me before going around trying to undermine things while completely, utterly ignorant. " So apparently the part of the CCP statement about MT had already been written before CSM even left for Reyk. All CCP had to do was to get CSM to sign off. How many drinks did that take? Want to buy a monocle?
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.05 06:25:00 - [12] Unfortunately, however, it seems the only CSM delegate with any sense didn't go. Vile Rat:"Vile rat posted: Wish I could be happy with this result but I cannot. quote: [from the CSM part of the joint statement - AkJon] "Game-affecting Virtual Goods: We are convinced that CCP has no plans to introduce any game-affecting virtual goods, only pure vanity items such as clothing and ship skins. We have been repeatedly assured that there are no plans for ægold ammo', ships which have different statistics from existing common hulls, or any other feared ægame destroying' virtual goods or services. We have expressed our deep concern about potential grey areas that the introduction of virtual goods permits, and CCP has made a commitment to discuss any proposals that might fall into these grey areas in detail with CSM at the earliest possible stage." While this statement is true I fear I must disagree with the overall sense of comfort in the message because I very strongly do NOT agree. The lack of a clear concise statement declaring that they will never go in this direction is alarming, let me explain why. Right now there is a roll out of cosmetic microtransactions which by and large the CSM, myself included, had no real issues with. I personally had no issues with it because there was an understanding that this was the far extent of what would be done. Nowhere in these statements is a determination to never cross this line into pay for non cosmetic, just an immediate desire to not pursue this goal. I can not support any MT scheme that would pave the way for even the possibility of going beyond this. I would have been satisfied if they said "we will never do this", you will notice that this statement did not occur. I respect the fact that CCP has no plans to go beyond cosmetic and I truly feel this sentiment is sincere, but without committing to it my confidence in the future of this MT scheme is in doubt and as such I cannot support it." Want to buy a monocle?
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.05 06:32:00 - [13] Edited by: AkJon Ferguson on 05/07/2011 06:34:37 While we're visiting other forums, Hratli Smirks said it very well: "I'm still not resubbing hth. The ultimate problem here is no matter what CCP does or says I don't trust them to communicate their intentions and I don't trust them to fix their game. I came to this conclusion when people were wondering if Mittens was going to tell us to pull up stakes and move to WoT or something when he came back from Iceland and I realized that what was going to happen was the CSM was going to come back and say "its all cool guys its just CCP is bad at talking to human beings they don't intend to add game-affecting MT and they are serious not like when they said they weren't going to add MT last year. CCP has a lot of very smart people running it now despite years of evidence to the contrary don't worry they understand." This game has been ****ed up to various degrees since Dominion, which was roughly 18 months ago. If they haven't been able to solve the problems that players pointed out before they even introduced them into the live game in 18 months, or even look like they understand the problems, then I'm not sure why I should continue to pay them (or rather facilitate someone else paying them on my behalf) on good faith that Some Day they will bring it all together in the fabled fix expansion. I mean these are the guys who watched a video of 25 titans DDing a carrier and said 'well that is just obviously unacceptably hilariously broken guys dont worry we see it' and their response was to make it so every titan could DD a carrier. Ultimately me staying in this game just encourages them to keep being useless." Actually, #11 (on the list this thread was supposed to be about) just occurred to me. A big part of the problem is that protesters weren't all posting in the same place. If there's a next time, hopefully we can decide on a common communication channel. Edit: Apparently CCP doesn't allow links to that forum from here, you'll have to quote me to get the link. Want to buy a monocle?
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.05 08:28:00 - [14] Even Mittens says something worthwhile on occasion: Mittens: "Yeah, we got total breakdowns of unsubs and with drill-down data on who and why. That's why I'm saying that this is such a valuable protest tactic for future controversies. Unsubbing works. I'd say it's safe to resub unless you want an excuse to leave the game - there's no gold ammo or anything. But the players now have a big ****ing stick to beat CCP with, and it's been proven to work." Want to buy a monocle?
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.05 08:30:00 - [15] I'm not through beating CCP with my big ****ing stick, are you? Want to buy a monocle?
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.05 09:05:00 - [16] Edited by: AkJon Ferguson on 05/07/2011 09:06:28 Originally by: Dorvab Arnst Edited by: Dorvab Arnst on 05/07/2011 08:37:00 Edited by: Dorvab Arnst on 05/07/2011 08:35:48 Despite what you might think, your protest didnt fail. CCP listened and did alot more to placate all of you children than any other MMO company would have done. Ill liste some of my own reasons I think this protest was stupid, I think that it would be more appropriate: 1-10 1. No, it wasn't based on speculation. It was based on what CCP said it planned to do in Fearless. And no, that wasn't some speculative, theoretical debate, we've already debunked that. Please keep up. 2. The protest was led by a bunch of veteran EVE players. We agree on that. The rest of your post is just ad hominem garbage. 3. Now you're just lying. The full version was MORE damning. It contained the 'golden goose' quote. And here's what the disclaimer ACTUALLY said: "DISCLAIMER: The views put forward in this magazine do not reflect general CCP company policies or decisions and are strictly individual opinions, written by CCPers or about CCPers who feel strongly about these issues." CCPers who feel strongly about these issues, get it? You somehow get "said memo did not reflect the policies or the mind set of employees at CCP" confused with "CCPers who feel strongly about these issues"? I wish your side would stop lying about Fearless. Your lies have been debunked. 4. "All you did was alienate yourselves by making the game unplayable for some people in the game." I think you have us confused with CCP. 5. No disagreement from me. 6. I think you pulled that # from your ass. Substantiate. Besides, I'm a customer. I don't care how many other customers are unhappy. If I'm unhappy and have excellent reason to be unhappy, I complain. Besides, your hero, soundwave, disagrees with you. I can pull the quote if you missed it. 7. I'm sorry we brought down the usual tone of discourse in Jita local. (Surely he's not serious?) 8. I said that already in 2 of my list. No argument here. 9. I didn't spend any time in Jita, but it seems a logical place to stage a protest to me and I thought the video they made was pretty cool. Shrug. 10. I think you ran out of ideas and posted your 6 again. Want to buy a monocle?
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.05 09:30:00 - [17] Originally by: Dorvab Arnst Originally by: San Severina I can only assume they haven't done their research & have been misinformed here by the disturbing amount of dishonest posts from dubious alt characters calling anyone not satisfied malcontents & whiners. What...as oppose to you malcontents calling anyone who disagrees with you Trolls, Dev Alts or worse. Pot calling the kettle black much? When I see someone with no posting history, no kb history, who is spouting CCP lies, I suspect him of being a dev alt. That seems reasonable to me. If you're not a CCP alt, have the balls to post on your main. In the exceedingly unlikely event that you're a genuine noob, then educate yourself before you open your piehole again. Thanks. I've submitted considerably fewer than 10 petitions in my 2.5 years of playing EVE with 4-5 toons. I am hardly a whiner. I am a customer who is dissatisfied with a defective product I have paid for and who is complaining about it. I am a customer who has heard that the company I ordered and prepaid for steaks from plans to deliver hamburger helper instead and I'm letting that company know that's not acceptable. That makes me ... normal I guess? Want to buy a monocle?
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.05 09:40:00 - [18] Originally by: Dorvab Arnst Originally by: AkJon Ferguson Originally by: Dorvab Arnst Originally by: San Severina I can only assume they haven't done their research & have been misinformed here by the disturbing amount of dishonest posts from dubious alt characters calling anyone not satisfied malcontents & whiners. What...as oppose to you malcontents calling anyone who disagrees with you Trolls, Dev Alts or worse. Pot calling the kettle black much? When I see someone with no posting history, no kb history, who is spouting CCP lies, I suspect him of being a dev alt. That seems reasonable to me. If you're not a CCP alt, have the balls to post on your main. In the exceedingly unlikely event that you're a genuine noob, then educate yourself before you open your piehole again. Thanks. I've submitted considerably fewer than 10 petitions in my 2.5 years of playing EVE with 4-5 toons. I am hardly a whiner. I am a customer who is dissatisfied with a defective product I have paid for and who is complaining about it. I am a customer who has heard that the company I ordered and prepaid for steaks from plans to deliver hamburger helper instead and I'm letting that company know that's not acceptable. That makes me ... normal I guess? Okay, let me make this really clear to you. THIS IS MY MAIN YOU MORON! Not all of us have been playing the game for as long as some and some of us dont usually come to the troll fest that is the forums becuase its full of ****nuts like you. Did I stutter? "In the exceedingly unlikely event that you're a genuine noob, then educate yourself before you open your piehole again. Thanks." Run along, troll. Want to buy a monocle?
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.05 09:43:00 - [19] Originally by: Ciar Meara Like a great women once said: I trust you completely, until you betray me And like a great war criminal once said: "Fool me once, shame on ù shame on you. Fool me ù you can't get fooled again." Want to buy a monocle?
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.05 10:10:00 - [20] Dr Lebroi - You get what you settle for. Tanya - If you look at the quote in context, you'll see the big stick refers to unsubbing, not protesting. Cailais - I agree that there were many points of view among the protesters. CSM did a **** poor job of condensing them, settling on the most popular/logical ones, and sticking to their guns. Even if that meant no agreement. Cash - Pretty much. Ladyfemke - Hope EVE becomes a game you want to come back to. Fly safe. Late here, ttfn. Want to buy a monocle?

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.